I have sometimes pondered what the state of spirits was like when they are together with a person living an everyday life; for even I have doubted at times that there were spirits and angels around people as they are with me, for the simple reason that I did not sense them, being persuaded also by the commonplace reason that I did not see them. And indeed I noticed that usually, their state when left to themselves, as they are when the person [they are with] is sleeping, was dream-like in various ways, whereas when the person was awake, it altered, but still differing entirely from their state when with me spoken of elsewhere [207]: I mean that when some person was speaking or interacting with me, they were instrumental means, in such a way that they were not aware of what they heard or saw, as they admitted. Immediately after the verbal exchange, when I reflected inwardly into my spirit, then they seemed to come to themselves, and to realize that they were lives by themselves, separate and separable from people.