164. CONCERNING THE GENERAL STATE OF THE SPIRITS WITH MEN I have sometimes considered what the state of the spirits around man is like when he lives the ordinary life; for I have even doubted at times whether there were spirits and angels with man as they are with me, solely for the reason that they were not perceived, and also owing to the general circumstance that they were not seen. And I have indeed observed that their state when left to themselves, as when man is asleep, was of a different nature and was a variously representative one; but when the man is awake, it was different. Nevertheless, it differed entirely from their state when with me, (concerning which some other time, [n. 207]); namely, that when a man was speaking and doing something with me, spirits were the instrumental cause, in such a way that they did not know what they then heard or saw, as they confessed. Immediately after my interaction by speech, when there was reflection from me to the spirits, they then returned to themselves, as it were, and perceived that they were lives by themselves, separate and separable from man.