4603. A CONVERSATION WITH A CERTAIN ROMAN CATHOLIC CONCERNING THEIR SAINTS. I spoke with a certain spirit, who was of the Roman Catholic religion, concerning their saints. He was told that they worship saints just as the heathen do their idols. He said that they only reverence them, and were instructed by their example: but he was told that they actually go down on their knees before them, pray them to give help, an that they ascribe these honors to them before the eyes of their priests, and are not deterred nor admonished by them; also that their prayers are such as are found in their sacred books, so that they pray to them for assistance. He supposed that they [the saints] interceded, and that it was tolerated on account of the simplicity of the people; but he was told that their holy prayers were thus instituted, and that they [the saints] act in this manner [that is, bear them aid], is pretended by the monks for the sake of gain and honor: exhibiting their miracles, extolling them with the mouth, and showing, in church, that they act in this way. To these things he was not able to reply. He was told that they are worse than the heathen; for the heathen do not know that idolatry is a sin, but they do know: wherefore they are sooner to be condemned than those. He said that the saints intercede; but he was told that many of the saints are in hell, and were, more than others, addicted to magic; and certain ones were mentioned, for example, Antonius, Francis Xavier, and David - a remark was also made about Paul - and that they were ignorant what heaven is: besides other things - some of which I do not remember - as that it is well known that every one is allowed to approach the Lord by prayers, and that He hears every one, and that it is He alone who ought to be worshipped, etc.