10. After this the angels asked the novitiates what further they had thought from their faith, concerning the consummation of the age, and what they still thought. They replied, "We had thought of the destruction of the universe, both heaven and earth; since we read that heaven and earth should be destroyed, and it was said that they should pass away in smoke." The angels then inquired, "What heaven and what earth; the heaven and earth of the natural world or of the spiritual world? There are also heavens and earths here, heavens where the angels are, and lands upon which they dwell." At this the novitiates responded, "What is this? Perhaps you are joking? Are not angels spirits? What is a spirit but a breath of wind? And where is this breath? Does it not fly about in the atmospheric heaven, and go even to the stars?" The angels then replied, "You are now in the spiritual world, and as yet you know no otherwise than that you are in the natural world. Here heaven, where the angels are, is above your head, and hell, where the devils and satans are, is under your feet. Is not the soil, upon which you and we stand, earth? Stamp it with your feet and know." But at this, because it was foreign to previously conceived ideas, they wondered greatly; yet, because they were in enlightenment, from the little flames upon their heads, they listened willingly to the discourse of the angels, and comprehended the truths they uttered.