Let a brief statement be made about what the rational is The area of understanding within the internal man is called the rational, while the area of understanding in the external man is called the natural, so that the rational is internal and the natural is external; and the two are completely distinct and separate from each other. A truly rational person is none other than one who is called a celestial person; that person enjoys a perception of what is good, and from that good a perception of what is true. But a person who does not have such perception but merely an awareness that a thing is true, because he has been taught that it is, and has a conscience as a result of that awareness, is not truly a rational person but an interiorly natural one. He is what those who belong to the Lord's spiritual Church are like. These two kinds of people are as different from each other as the light of the moon is from the light of the sun; and that also is why the Lord is seen by spiritual angels as the moon but by celestial ones as the sun, 1521, 1529-1531, 4060, 4696. Very many in the world imagine that a rational person is one who can reason with skill on many subjects and link one piece of reasoning to another in such a way that the conclusion he draws seems to be the truth. But that ability occurs even in very wicked people who are expert reasoners and can make the deduction that evil things are good and false ideas are true, or that good things are evil and true ideas are false. But anyone who stops to reflect can that this is wicked imagination and not rationality. Rationality consists in seeing inwardly and perceiving that what is good is indeed good, and from this that what is true is indeed true; for such vision and perception of these things comes from heaven. The reason why those who belong to the Lord's spiritual Church are interiorly natural people is that they acknowledge as true only what they have learned from parents and teachers and later on firmly established for themselves. There is nothing else from which they can see inwardly or perceive whether a thing is true except what they have thus firmly established for themselves - unlike those who are celestial; which is why the latter are rational people, whereas the former are interior natural ones. The internal celestial, which 'Joseph' represents, exists in the rational, but spiritual good, which 'Israel' represents, exists in the interior natural, 4286; for they are spiritual people who are represented by' Israel', and celestial ones who are represented by 'Joseph'.