10709. They said, further, that when they are speaking among themselves, they for the most part advance to the ninth use, and that there are some in the universe who in speaking advance to the fifth use, some to the seventh, to the tenth, to the fifteenth, to the twentieth, and even to the fiftieth. When I wondered what this meant it was explained, namely, that it consists in speaking remotely from the thing that is the subject of the discourse. This was illustrated by examples, as for instance, when someone is in a place of worship, and it is asked where he is, they do not say that he is there, but that he is not at home, that he is far from his house, and so on. By this they mean that he is with God, thus in the place of worship, for he who is in a place of worship is with God, and insofar as he is with God he is not at home, or in his own house; by being in his own house they also mean being at home. To take another example: When someone binds another by such things as are of his love, they say to him, "thou knowest how to do it," or "now thou art in it," or "now it is in thee," or otherwise, provided it is remotely expressed. This is called speaking to the fifth, the ninth, the fifteenth, the twentieth, even to the fiftieth use. To "speak to the use" is a customary expression in heaven; and its meaning is according to the degree of the remoteness from the thing which is the subject. And wonderful to say, when anyone speaks in this remote manner, they at once know to what degree it goes without counting it. They who are in the cogitative speech in which are the inhabitants of that earth, and many others who in like manner speak together by means of the face and the lips, and by what is sonorous varied according to the ideas of thought, instantly perceive the thing which is so spoken of; for the thought itself unfolds and publishes itself more fully by such speech than by the speech of words, which is relatively material.