I have held many conversations with these three leaders, who were the reformers of the Christian church, and thus I learned what has been the condition in which they lived from the beginning down to the present day. As for Luther, as soon as he arrived in the spiritual world, he was at once a keen propagator and defender of his dogmas, and as the numbers of his supporters coming from the earth increased, so did his zeal for those dogmas. He was given a house there similar to the one he had lived in while in the bodily life at Eisleben. In the middle of this he set up a slightly raised platform, where he took his seat. The door was open to admit listeners, whom he arranged in rows, the strongest supporters nearest to him, and those less favourable behind him. Then he spoke continuously, from time to time allowing questions, in order to be able to begin again by picking up the thread of the discourse he had just finished.

[2] As a result of this general support he finally adopted a false conviction; this is so potent in the spiritual world that no one can resist it or speak against what it prescribes. But because this was a kind of incantation as used by the ancients, he was forbidden to go on talking seriously on the basis of that conviction, and after that he taught as before from memory and at the same time the use of his understanding. A conviction of this sort which is a kind of incantation wells up from self-love. This ends up by making a person so disposed that, when anyone contradicts him, he not only attacks the subject under debate, but the other person himself.

[3] He lived like this up to the Last judgment, which took place in the spiritual world in 1757. A year later he was moved from his first house to another, at the same time moving into a different state. On hearing that I, although in the natural world, spoke with those who were in the spiritual world, he was one of a number who came to see me. After some questions had been put and answered, he perceived that the present time is the end of the former church and the beginning of the new church foretold by Daniel's prophecy, and also by the Lord Himself in the Gospels. He also grasped that it is this new church which is meant by the New Jerusalem in Revelation, and by the everlasting gospel which the angel flying in the midst of heaven announced to dwellers upon earth (Rev. 14:6). He became very indignant and abused me; but as he grasped that there was a new heaven, which was and is being made from those who acknowledge the Lord alone as God of heaven and earth, as His words in Matt. 28:18 state, and noticing that the size of his audience grew less day by day, he stopped being abusive, and then came closer to me and began to talk with me in a more intimate fashion. Once he had been convinced that he had drawn his principal dogma about justification by faith alone not from the Word, but from his own intelligence, he allowed himself to be instructed about the Lord, charity, true faith, free will and so on to redemption, all of this from no source but the Word. Finally when he had been convinced, he began to take a favourable view, and more and more to convince himself of the truths on which the new church is being founded.

[4] At this time he was with me daily, and then, whenever he recalled as being those truths, he began to laugh at his previous dogmas, as being something completely opposite to what the Word says. I heard him say: 'You should not be surprised that I seized upon faith alone as justifying, shut off charity from its spiritual essence and also took away from people all free will in spiritual matters, not to mention other things which hang like hooks from a chain on faith alone, once it is accepted. My aim was to make a split with the Roman Catholics, and there was no other way to achieve and accomplish this aim. I am not surprised therefore that I myself went astray, but I am surprised that one madman could drive so many others mad.' He glanced round here at some dogmatic writers who had been famous in his time, faithfully following his teaching, for failing to see the contradictions contained in Holy Scripture, evident though they were.

[5] The examining angels told me that this leader was in a better position to be converted than many others who had convinced themselves of justification by faith alone, because in childhood, before he started making the reformation, he had absorbed the dogma of the preeminence of charity. This was why both in his writings and his sermons he gave excellent teaching about charity. It is to be deduced from these facts that his belief in justification was implanted in his external natural man, not rooted in his internal spiritual man. The case is quite different with those who while young convince themselves that there is no spirituality in charity; and this also happens automatically, when justification by faith alone is well grounded upon arguments.

[6] I talked with the prince of Saxony with whom Luther had been in the world. He told me how he had often criticised him, in particular for separating charity from faith, and declaring faith and not charity as the means to salvation, when Holy Scripture not only links them as the two universal means to salvation, but Paul too puts charity above faith, saying that there are three things, faith, hope and charity, and the greatest of these is charity (1 Cor. 13:13). Luther, however, replied every time that he could do no other because of the Roman Catholics. This prince is among the blessed.