To prove to them that this was so, an angelic spirit was permitted to talk with them, telling them in general terms what they knew and did not know, and asserting that there were infinite things they did not know, and all eternity would not be enough to learn even the general principles. He spoke in angelic ideas, much more readily than they did, and they were amazed to find that he could disclose what they knew and what they did not know.

Later I saw another angel speaking with them; he was to be seen at some height towards the right. He came from our world. He went through a long list of things they did not know; and then talked with them by changes of state, something they said they did not understand. So he told them that each change of state contained an infinite number of things, as also did the smallest detail of a change. On hearing this they began to humble themselves, having previously been so proud their knowledge. Their self-abasement was pictured by the letting down of their roll (for their group then appeared in the form of a roll, in front towards the left at a distance, on a level with the region below the navel.) The roll looked as if sagging in the middle but high at both sides. I could observe some to-and-fro movement taking place in it, and they were told the meaning of this; it showed what they were thinking in their state of self-abasement, while those high up at the sides were not yet humbling themselves. I saw the roll divide, those not humbling themselves being banished back towards their own globe, while the remainder stayed.