254. [257] I have often spoken with the Jews on various subjects, namely, (1) Concerning their sacrifices, that they refer to things heavenly; and in what way their various sacrifices signify the Lord. (2) Concerning Isaac, why he might have been sacrificed by Abraham; and that these things had not been disclosed to them in the world because they were so external that they would not have received, for they were not willing to receive; and that they would have profaned them. (3) Concerning the things which are contained in the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah. At this they became altogether silent; for the chapter was explained, so that they could make no answer. They were afraid lest it should be read again, for they were not willing to be convinced. (4) Concerning eternal life, that it consists in the unanimity of all and in joy therefrom; and that as for them, they are at enmity with each other and thus cannot have the felicity of heaven. They answered, that they look for the Messiah who will unite them. (5) I spoke with them about the signification of Jacob's sinew which was put out of joint, about Esau's heel which Jacob caught hold of, and about the heel which the serpent bruised, that these signify themselves; about their origin from a Canaanitish woman, and from whoredom with a daughter-in-law. And it was explained what all these signify, and that the things there meant are such as are signified. Then that the Jews and their tribes mentioned in the Word are not they but are things celestial and spiritual. I spoke about the land of Canaan, to the effect that they believe they are to be introduced into that land by the Messiah when He comes; that He will walk before them with a rod, and will dry up the rivers; that a wall of fire will be round about them; that they will go through Christendom, and that Christians will take hold of their garments and beg to be allowed to follow them; and that they will admit these and hold them as slaves provided they give their money; and many similar things. They were asked whether the dead and those in the world of spirits are also to follow the Messiah, or whether it is only those who are in the world; whether the land of Canaan would be able to hold them; where the Messiah was to be born; whether they knew the line of David, or the situation of Bethlehem; and many similar questions; why they look for an earthly kingdom when the kingdom of the Messiah is a heavenly one, which those who have now departed from the world might know. All this was said and heard. Those of them who were evil could not be convinced, but some who were upright wished to be instructed. (6) It was explained to them what the land of Canaan signifies, and what Jerusalem; why these are called holy; what Zion signifies; what the twelve tribes represent and hence signify; also the passages where it is said that they who had been in captivity would return, to the effect that it was by no means they who were meant, but that it was so written on account of the spiritual sense in each particular. (7) I spoke with them about the spiritual sense; at which they first said that they knew there was a mystical sense in the Word, and that they knew that mystical sense, which was that they receive gold and that they are able to make gold. To which I answered that, mystically, that is, spiritually, this is also true, because gold signifies the good of love, and they who are in that mystical or spiritual sense of the Word, receive this love. But they wanted gold, not love, saying that the possession of gold is love.* * See T 845; SE 2256, 2257, 4388.